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The Atari Resurgence A Transcript by Matthew J. W. Ratcliff A.N.A.L.O.G. Computing, April 1986 Key: Moderator DS: David Small - of Data Pacific, Mr. MacCartridge Speakers ST: Sam Tramiel - President of Atari Corp. LT: Leonard Tramiel - Vice-President of Software Development, Atari Corp. BW: Bill Wilkinson - of OSS and COMPUTE! Magazine MR: Matthew Ratcliff - ANALOG Magazine representative JC: James Capparell - Publisher, ANTIC Magazine Contributions from the Audience SH: Sig Hartmann - President of Software Division, Atari Corp. JP: Jerry Pournelle - in audience, Chaos Manor - Byte Magazine AU: Audience (text): Editorial notes by MR ... : Skipped section of garbled speech or trivial information. DS: (Introduction.) The Resurgence of Atari. Resurgence implies a present, a past, and a future. Why did J.T. decide to buy Atari? ST: We left Commodore by the end of May. There was a big question in our minds. Do we become venture capitalists, merchant bankers? We did get a LOT of money from our Commodore stock and we decided to go back into the computer business, so we formed Tramiel Technology. And then my father got a call from a company called Leeman Brothers, oh no, Lasard Fraier from New York, who said "There's a small company called ATARI up for sale. Do you have any interest?" We had numerous discussions ... thought there was a good buy to be had ... the Atari name was very very strong throughout the world. We thought we could fix it, invest, and bring it back to life. So we went for it. (James Capparell shows up late.) DS: How close was Atari to closing its doors when you guys took over? ST: Well, Warner had, and still has a lot of money. They could have kept it going for a while longer. They were losing TENS of millions of dollars a month. When they would have closed it, I don't know, but Warner was getting on the brink of financial trouble itself, so they would have done something very soon. DS: (He made a few comments about how quiet old Atari was during the 1450XLD days.) DS: What does ST stand for? Rumor has it that it stands for Sam Tramiel. Now is it really true that after you got your initials on it, you guys came up with Sixteen/Thirty-two? (For the Motorola 68000 - 16 bit data bus and 32 bit registers.) ST: No, the other way around. We try to make our model numbers logical and we thought of it before hand. There was the XE, X for XL compatibility and the E for Eight bit. The ST for Sixteen/Thirty two and the Thirty Two bit will probably be called the TT, have it somewhere in the name. DS: But the LT will be Large Scale Thirty two bit machine (poking at Leonard Tramiel). ST: We have my kids also to consider! DS: Why was the 68000 chosen for this series of machines as opposed to the Intel series of chips for IBM compatibility? LT: IBM compatibility was never something we were aiming for. The IBM PC in my personal opinion has always been an archaic tecnology (AMEN to that, from an engineer and programmer who KNOWS!) that's probably held back computers more than any single thing done by any single company. ST: Please quote him. LT: The 68000 was the only available full 16 bit processor around with the linear address space that you could turn into a REAL computer. There were several other processor chips in the earlier stages of their development, the 32016 from National and a couple of others that were around, but really nothing that was available in large quantities. ... Large quantity usually implies low price. DS: Why was color chosen as part of the architecture (as opposed to the MacIntosh?) and why is it done the way it is as opposed to the custom chip set of the Amiga? I understand that the Amiga was a bone of contention for a while. Why was color implemented on the machine and why do you feel it's important on a machine of this kind? LT: It's pretty. DS: Why does it help sell the machine? LT: People like looking at color graphics the machine produces. The ST has more custom chips than Amiga does. So there are 4 in the ST, there are 3 in the Amiga. And the color is in fact done by the custom chips in the ST. Just as it (the color is generated) is done by the custom chips in the Amiga. (But the Amiga does much of its graphics in hardware. DS was hinting at hardware bitblt, as you will see later.) DS: Do you know the figures of monochrome versus color systems that are being sold? ST: Europe, 50/50, and in North America 80% color and 20% monochrome. (Next David Small opened the floor for questions ABOUT THE PAST. But no one paid much attention and continually asked about the FUTURE of Atari and its products.) AU: We've heard a lot about possible products for the Atari 8 bit machines, but it seems like most folkes in the company right now (Atari Corp.) don't see the 8 bit machines in the least. Will these things really happen, or will we see the death of the 8 bit machine? ST: Ok, a very clear answer. First, we are still committed and will be committed for a long time on the 8-bit Atari machines. We did promote the XM301 modem. That is now shipping (and has been) for the last few months. It took a little longer than we expected, but we finally got it out. There is an 80 column card, which is about complete now. I hope for production in June. I had setup for a review of it, I think it was on Friday, with all the engineering people about it. We just added some more RAM to it to make it that (much) more flexible. But it will be out in June, maybe July. Retail price, taking a stab at it, will be around $79, something like that. We are definitely keeping it (the 8-bit product line) alive. There will be future RAM expansions. (Humm, sounds like maybe a 260XE in the offing? I wish they would just go to a full 1/2 MEG on the XE and leave it at that. Atari will set the standard and then software developers will support it!) The machine will stay alive, without a doubt. Also there will be a new 3 1/2" floppy out, I would say 3rd or 4th quarter, 500K. Someone close by me (Bill Wilkinson) is working on a DOS for it. (I hear that utilities will be provided to go from 5 1/4" to 3 1/2" format, but not the other way around. That sounds rediculous! The DOS should support both drives simultaneously, porting easily in either direction. If they do not, the new drive and DOS will gain about as much popularity as Atari DOS 3.0 did!!!) ... (A dumb question was asked next that wasted a few minutes of confusion.) AU: Why wasn't it deemed important to put a composite output, readily accessable, on the ST? ST: The NEW 520STs do have composite output on them. (I'm not sure what is going on here. A friend just got a 1040ST yesterday, which has been touted as having the RF interface. The docs refer to the composite video output, however the port is NOT on the ST!) AU: So there's a plug on the back so you can plug into any standard composite output? ST: Correct. And future 1040's will also have that. In Europe we did it a few months earlier, it was much much easier for Europe to get it done. We definitely did that. JP: You guys gonna get a math chip in the 1040? (The 68881 floating point math coprocessor companion to the 68000.) LT: As soon as Motorola does (get one working). AU: I've heard of kludges where it can be added. LT: Yes, well, we prefer not to do kludges. And we have future machines which will definitely have math chips in them. DS: Jim (Capparell), perhaps this will be a good one for you since you're a magazine publisher. What do you see the relative importance of the 8-bit machines versus the 16 bit machines at Atari? What is your perception? JC: Well, I can't speak for Atari, but I can tell you from my end of the business from the questions that we get that people are going to lose their magazine, that we are going to lose our 8-bit focus, that the product is going to evaporate and therefore the machine will become obsolete. From the things I do know, speaking to Atari, as well as other advertisers who support the product, we have an ongoing commitment to 8-bit. We are commited to Antic, roughly 60-70% of the magazine will be continued 8-bit support. Of course that demands that we go out and seek writers and information that we can then pass on to you (the reader). So it's a synergistic thing, that we have, I think, to be the spearpoint of. But we are committed, and from what I've seen around us there is an ongoing commitment (from Atari and advertisers who support ANTIC). Also I might add, retailers have a continued commitment to 8-bit. That's important to know, because then you can find your product. DS: Matthew, what is your position (as a USER, not publisher). MR: I have seen the same thing. User groups, they are very concerned. There is a lot of pressure. Like when I take an ST in for demos and so forth, they want 2 or 3 to one as far as 8-bit is concerned, because most people still own 8-bit machines. It seems that everyone wants one. The two questions most people can (often) ask: can I afford one and do I need one. Most people know whether or not they can afford one. But as far as whether they need one, most people get the impression that the machine (8-bit) is obsolete. They don't really know for sure. The questions they should ask themselves are: Do I need a better Word Processor (than Paper Clip or Atari Writer)? (If you do, Atari's latest release, version 1.03, of 1st Word is phenominal! I'm using it now.) A better BASIC than BASIC XL? (If so, don't buy an ST until ST BASIC is debugged!) A better assembler? (You can't get one for the ST. MAC/65 still can't be beat.) (ANALOG Computing is committed to 8-bit Atari support as well, trust me!) DS: Bill, what do you think of 8-bit versus 16-bit? What have your sales of your products shown (OSS, not COMPUTE! - Bill Wilkinson was listed as being a representative of COMPUTE!, however he talked almost exclusively about OSS products, sales, and etc.) BW: Well let me comment that everybody talks about the doldrums of 83-84 for the Atari 8-bit line ... (BW went into a long explanation of how an OSS fiscal year ended just as the Tramiels introduced the ST. So he had 1 year before and one year after the ST intro. to compare 16-bit effects on 8-bits.) Strangely enough, if you take a look at our unit sales they didn't change a bit, hardly a bit, and of course we had only 8-bit products at that time. You can argue that maybe we are not typical of the industry because we have sophisticated products, not games and stuff like that. I'm not sure that's true, I think that maybe a lot of what happened is people, we did this too, geared up expecting a 50% or 100% per year gain. Well, it didn't happen, it just stayed flat. That's a disaster if you've geared up for a 50% to 100% gain. It hurt us to, because we had geared up. We had to wait a minute, things weren't going like we had planned. Still, level isn't bad in a market where everybody says Atari is dying. What we're seeing now is that 8-bit sales are just about as solid as they were the previous year; despite the fact that the ST sales are booming. ST: On the 8-bit line in '85, the mass market people backed out of the industry. They said, "Oh my God, this is very scary. We're losing money in this." Price reductions, it was going crazy. In '85 it was like a big consolidation of who will be in the business. The 2 major retailers in the country who were in the 8- bit computer business are now out of it. K-Mart and Montgomery Wards. At Commodore our numbers, our biggest numbers (in sales) were to those 2 companies. And they no longer sell computers. (I can still get C-64's at all K-Marts that I know of. They dropped Atari's sometime ago, however.) Now the rest of the mass market, Toys R Us, Child World, the other chains, they have not decided to go back into it and go ahead aggressively. We have now just closed deals with those 2 accounts in the last 2 weeks (Toys R Us, Child World). So the 8-bit line will now be going ahead very strongly in 86. DS: For 8 and 16 bit? ST: Yes, the 8-bit line especially. They plan major advertising, major promotions on the 8-bit line. BW: Another comment on that same vein. We saw the same thing in the software industry. Our biggest distributors 2 years ago no longer distribute Atari software at all, and so we've had to look up completely new distribution channels. Distributors that you never heard of 2 years ago are now our biggest distributors. And I think a lot of it was perception of the market, not reality of the market. ST: Exactly. DS: There is always the chicken and the egg problem (which comes first?) launching a new machine. I had wondered if one of the reasons that the Tramiels had purchased Atari, or however it is they acquired Atari, was in the user group base - which really is a fairly effective marketing tool. Atari sold the first 520's to user groups. Any comment? ST: There's no question, as I said earlier on, that we bought Atari because of the name. The name is known throughout the world. Wherever I travel I mention that I work for Atari (and the reaction is) "Oh, Atari!" There's no doubt, they know who it is. The user group installed base was very important to us. DS: I used to work at Texas Instruments. I had to go through company purchasing departments to procure various equipment. I know it would be a problem for me to put the name ATARI on a PO (purchase order) request, and try to get it through a company, because of the close identification, which I know is false - but many people don't - with a game computer. ST: Well TI has bought 520STs. As has IBM, Eastman Kodak, AT&T, and so on. (David Small was certainly impressed.) DS: Well do you feel you'll overcome this name (image) or would it be better perhaps to come up with a name such as "Atari Business Systems" or whatever? ST: Let me give you a story. Last November I was in Germany at a big systems show. I have a car in Europe, in Germany which I brought in for servicing. I asked them to please send the bill to my company. They said "What's the name of your company?" I said "Atari." They said, "Ahhh, the computer company!" and I was impressed. It was not the game company, it was the computer company. If advertising is done properly people start to move their perception. It's a technology company. Computers, video games, it's an electronics technology company and we are going to be pushing that very strongly. BW: May I make a comment too, along that same vein? Going out to user groups, talking to user groups, talking to buyers of our products, we are finding that less than half of the buyers of ST products we see, are people that have had 8 bit Atari's before. What does that say? Yeah, sure, Atari user groups etc. promoted the sales of the ST. I don't know if that has any significance ... MR: I have a couple of comments about the image of Atari's being a game machine. I took a 520ST in to work, I work at McDonnell Douglas full time. I took the system into work and demoed it for a week (on lunch breaks and after hours). Two of the most frequent comments made: (1) It's not IBM compatible and (2) There is no way I could get that (520ST) on a purchase request because of the Atari name. They would think I was buying a game machine. Also, there was a computer show in St. Louis this weekend. (The St. Louis Computer and Business Equipment Showcase) Our club had a booth, the vice president (Terry Shoemaker) was there. A lady stopped by and watched some of the demos we were running on the 8- bit 130XE. He asked her if she had an Atari. She said, "Yes, I have A-TOY." That's the image that still sticks with us. LT: There's certainly ... (room for improvement. Then ST interrupts...) ST: In this country it's the strongest toy image in the world for Atari. In Europe there were not that many video games sold, so it was easier to change the image to a computer. In this country there's going to be a major campaign to try to change that image. MR: There is MacIntosh compatibility (now, in reference to the MacCartridge) and eventually compatibility too in the form of a PC front end or something. Those 2 would help a lot. DS: Which brings me to my next question. I am told the IBM box was shown in Hanover. Is that true, I wasn't there? ST: Yes, that is true. DS: When will it become available here? ST: We hope to ship it at the end of the summer, August. We plan to show it at COMDEX. We hope to be showing Lotus 123 running at that time, at COMDEX. DS: Could you give me a description of your machine, that wont violate your non disclosure agreements? Is it, for example, a separate box? ST: At the end of April, Comdex. (ST being tight lipped, but we loosen up LT in a little while, and things get fun!) DS: Can you give me a description of the box? Is it a stand alone box with a disk, 5 1/4" drive? ST: We are going to have an expansion box for the ST. And in that box you can put a 5 1/4" drive if you want to. (Remember that.) You can plug in the IBM card if you want to. And other future products (get used to that phrase) into that expansion box. AU: How much? ST: No decision yet. Very competitive. DS: They were very kind to show up here, so lets not grill them too hard. ST: I just commit to be very competitive, typical Tramiel - Atari style (Power without the price.) AU: How IBM compatible is it? ST: It's supposed to be, when we're finished, 99 point something percent compatible. Very compatible. AU: Will the box be able to use IBM cards. ST: I'm not sure. LT: That's more of a packaging question that anything else. DS: Is the bus brought out on the IBM card so you can plug in IBM expansion cards? LT: That's how you package the thing together. (The BOX will have its own bus of some sort, to add different future products. Apparently there has not been a decision as to whether there will be a separate BUS for the IBM compatible cards.) ST: We have no comment at this time. BW: The 3 1/2" format is compatible with the format used on the DG One (Data General IBM PC compatible laptop, with 3 1/2" drives) and on the ... computers (Kaypro IBM compatible, portable with 3 1/2" drives I think). So presumably there is some available IBM software in 3 1/2" format. ST: Yes. I was thinking of this yesterday. Now that IBM has announced their laptop, and that has got 3 1/2", BINGO, our floppies will have a lot of software now. (Assuming that the IBM Box can load software from the ST drives directly. Above it sounded like the IBM clone box would have its own drive separate for loading PC software. With the announcement of the PC Laptop, there may be a scramble to do some minor re-engineering on it?) IBM would have to shift a lot of their programs into that format. DG got NO WHERE with that. But if IBM does it, which they already have, LOTUS will have to go to 3 1/2" and so will everybody else. (DEFINITELY!) DS: Get a Kaypro and an IBM Disk and try it out, see if we can pull up a directory ... Kaypro's putting out their new laptop with 3 1/2". (It was a suggestion to verify that the ST can read IBM format 3 1/2" disks.) Any comments? JC: I think about that image. You know I've thought a lot about that obviously. We've fought probably it tooth and nail the longest. Phone calls and letters and I speak to the press, non computer press. It's something I thought about last spring when I bought my development system. We've had it since, I think, February. That the machins is so good, and so well put together, and such a nice piece of architecture, that it alone would be the thing that would effect an image change. It would be a step by step thing. Now what we see is, in fact, the popular press - DVORAK, and Info World - betting on Atari. I think you (the press) never would have said that a few years ago. The machine is too good to ignore, the price is too good to ignore. I can see it in the letters, the phone calls, the responses, the tone in people's voices. We're picking up new retailers. Retailers who would never touch Atari before. In fact, I'm not as concerned as Matt is with that image thing. I believe right now it's changing. I can hear it on the phone and see it in the tone of the letters. We've got retailers that never would have taken Atari before. And of course, that makes us happy. They've got the magazine and software, and advertisers ... by the way, speaking of advertisers. We have advertisers who have never touched Atari before. We know of what products are coming, not all of it obviously, but in the next 2-4 months out. They approach us for advertising page rates, what kind of circulation we have, and so on. I don't hear anything that says "how's the old game magazine or old game equipment?", and of course that makes ME happy. BW: Another comment. Back in the days when COMPUTE! had a circulation of 100K to 150K they claimed 40-45% Atari readership. And now they have a claimed circulation of 320K and Atari readership of only 20%. Well percentage wise that sounds terrible, but in terms of absolute numbers, that means they've gone up. DS: Ok. Are there any other machines you are planning on emulating? I've heard of an Apple II eumlator... Are there any plans for Atari to market, for instance Apple II, or ... ST: I personally wont comment about it. We'll pass on that one. MR: Another comment that I've heard from user groups is that people wont go out and buy an ST because it immediately obsoletes their 8-bit system and also their 8-bit software. People have asked me if there was going to be an Atari 8-bit machine emulator for the ST. ST: Well, we did check that one out with our engineers. We think it's almost impossible to do. It won't work, so we did think of it. DS: There is a good emulator available in stores now, the 65XE. It runs most of Atari's software and it's fairly compatible I understand. LT: Also quite inexpensive... (To expound on the users' view. Most "computaholics" don't make a buck with their machines, like those at the conference do. They compute for the pure joy of it. It is a hobby, an expensive one. The average user may have $500 to $3000 tied up in his 8-bit hardware and software. A frequent comment I hear is "if I brought another computer home, my wife would kick me out." Many casual users have a difficult time justifying a computer's cost in time, money, and 'real estate'. Quite often the computer is banished to the basement or some other obscure corner of the house. Retaining the 8-bit system, while buying an ST is completely out of the question for many. Most would try to sell their 8-bit systems, at a huge loss, to make room for the 'new baby' and help pay for it. In the mean time, old faithful 8-bit hardware and classic software would be sorely missed. If he could purchase an ST and 8-bit emulator, then he could easily part with all the 8-bit hardware and all but his favorite 8-bit software. When viewed from the typical user's point, the 8-bit emulation capability is indeed a valid concern.) JC: Out of curiosity, how many in this room own 8-bit Atari's? (99%) STs? (99%) 2600s? (70%) 5200s? (5%) 7800s (0.1%) AU: I question the wisdom of a company that's now getting out of the game machine mentality (image), rereleasing the 2600 and 7800, which is just going to put fuel on the fire of that game machine image. ST: Wait, we did not say we were getting out of the game machine business or image. Right now the 2600 is selling like hotcakes, everywhere, its like popcorn. We make in our Taiwan factory right now, I think, 15000 a day. They are selling like crazy and I'm not going to turn off that business. It is extremely profitable. AU: Are you using the profits for ST development? ST: We are, exactly. For future technology. But it's a bread and butter thing, it just keeps on going. I can't stop it, it's wonderful. We had planned to make this year about 3 million pieces of the 2600 for North America, that's including Mexico. The 7800, we were blessed with 100,000 machines of inventory from Warner. It will be coming out for sale in April, late this month. We have the first 12 titles on the machine. And if it does well, and I think it will, we'll keep on going with it. We are staying in the video game business. And of course the 68000 based one (game machine) is for '87. (A future product is out of the bag!) JC: To reiterate what Sam said just a second ago, it's electronic technologies. If you keep that in mind, that's how you can respond to anyone who comes up with those kinds of questions. AU: I have a question about the 8-bit. Is Atari going to do any national advertising on the 8-bit? ST: Toys R Us is planning a campaign sometime in the next few months, which we are backing. There will be a lot of national advertising on the Atari 8-bit line. We are waiting to get back into the mass market. You can advertise and you can't buy it, why waste your money? We had to get the distribution setup, which has now been re-established. Now the advertising will begin. (If this is the "major campaign to try to change that image" Sam referred to, I don't see how a name like Toys 'R' Us behind the equipment is going to help dispell the game machine stigma around the Atari name!) DS: Speaking of Toys R Us, many dealers were concerned when Atari announced that it was going into major stores, becuse the old Atari company undercut dealers and made a lot of enemies. How do you feel that mass merchandising will affect the Atari dealer network? ST: There can be many more STs sold this way. It's very important to broaden the base of the ST. The dealer network who was upset at the beginning, has now backed off. On the 1040 we have been very, very careful. We're only selling it to really established, REAL dealers, who do the servicing to back the machine up. No one else is getting it, we're being very selective with the 1040. And they see our commitment. So they're quite pleased with that. We are supporting the specialist dealer very heavily. DS: Jim, have you heard any feedback, you are both in the magazine and software business, on the question of mass merchandising? JC: I've heard some, but I'll tell you, the dealers .... A couple of years ago we had as many as 1000 specialty Atari retailers. It dropped to about 400, and now we're back up approaching 800 again, of just specialty computer stores. The people that survived tended to be the most successful, they tended to be like us I think - the most enthusiastic. Yes, they would rather not have that competition, but it didn't stop their business. It didn't slow them down, and they were the guys that complained the least. They were the most successful because they believed in what they did and they did it the best. I think that that still holds, that these people are - they'd like it another way - still in business and they do a very good business. ST: I think it was the press having a field day (that caused the alarm), during January. AU: We have seen a virtual drying up of software for the 8-bit machine in the last year. Panel comments about the "wait and see" attitude in the industry or the piracy problem we all hear about. Are we going to see any 8-bit? ST: One of the biggest problems we had in the last 18 months is phone calls and letters, "Where can I buy 8-bit software?" That was a real, real problem. There's thousands and thousands of programs available, but where are you going to buy it? We have Toys R Us and guys like that coming back to us now and they're buying software like crazy. We're getting calls from 3rd party developers saying "my God, what happened? We're getting phone calls all over the place now..." A nation wide chain will carry 8-bit software now and that will definitely stimulate the development of new 8-bit stuff for the 8-bit machine. LT: The biggest problem seems to have been the distribution. The software is there. You can ask Bill what stuff is coming up from OSS and of course ANTIC has put out a bunch of new software for the 8-bit machine as well as the 16-bit. The software is there, we need to get better distribution so that people know about it. ST: We know that (lack of 8-bit software availability). It's not a perception, it's a fact. And we have to get it out there. And on the ST, having just come back from Europe, looking at the US, Canada, and Germany markets, there are probably altogether maybe 500 titles. But in English, over 300 titles for the ST now. It is fantastic. Sig (Hartmann) has done a hell of a job in that. We have a couple thousand, I would say, developers around the world now, of ST software. More all the time. JC: One thing you guys can do to help. I read letters to the editor, most of us do, and we pay attention. If you go into a store and you simply say "I'm looking for some Atari stuff," you'd be surprised what that does in the retailer's mind. He has failed as a retailer if he's not delivering to his customer. It only takes a few times. A letter in a magazine, a few phone calls. People walking in from time to time. It alters the perception of the retailer. They begin to say "maybe I'm missing the boat." In fact, that's what's happening now with some retailers that are coming on to the ST, that is going to overflow into the 8-bit. So for you guys that are worried about 8-bit, I really think it's probably good for all of us no matter which machine in the Atari family you use. (In fact, ANTIC has encouraged its readers via it's I/O Board section to write and call vendors, such as Electronic Arts, who have stopped developing software for the 8- bit Ataris. It has helped, with several new 8-bit titles released by Electronic Arts. If you want 8-bit software or hardware, call, write, and generally annoy the vendors. "Knock, and the door shall be open.") MR: An additional comment on that. Our user group went to get a product for the Atari computers locally and no one carried it. So we called the company directly, got a group discount, and we bought 28 copies. Two days later two of the local (computer) boutiques that sell ST stuff were also carrying that 8-bit product. DS: It would be an interesting development if the ST machine in effect revived the 8-bit machines' retail sales. BW: I just want to comment that the thing that I have seen that is more interesting in some ways than the software is the hardware that has come out for the 8-bit machines that never existed. Things that existed on other machines in prior years that now exist for the Atari's in just the last year. For example, the Computer Eyes, Covox, and mouse. AU: Will the expansion box be made available to developers early to help with porting and so forth? LT: One of the things we always strive to do is, when the machine is done, we ship it. It's not really very effective for us to produce the machine and send it out to developers, wait a while, and then ship it. So what we are doing instead is trying to make the IBM box as compatible as possible so it should certainly not have any problems. AU: You've done that more or less with the (ST) hard disk. LT: That was more by accident. ST: The hard disks were shipped to developers to help them get the software done faster, and make development much easier. But also to answer your statement about the public's getting the hard disk. The hard disk is now in manufacturing in Taiwan, the pilot production. Mass production starts next month (May). It is a definite go. It's really happening, there's no doubt. A little lower than $800. DS: My first ST had some quality control problems. And this is a common thing. Byte magazine's ST had QC problems. We would like to know if these have been fixed. The reason the STs don't seem to have these problems any more. But perhaps this would be a good time to clear the air. (Of the half dozen STs I know of that have been purchased by friends within the last 3 months, all have performed flawlessly!) ST: From our experience we've been in the computer business for quite a while now, in every new computer you come out with - you think it's perfect - you ship it, "Oh, this resistor is touching this metal pan and shorts out the machine" or "this socket is not holding the square chip in right." These are the things you learn as you go on. After the first few thousand were shipped, we found the problems, we fixed them. And we are doing that continuously. The quality is superb on the machine. We are very, very pleased it. I'm not trying to patronize you. It is fantastic quality wise now. DS: Would it be fair to say that for the first portion of 1985 ... (Told a story about how poor Atari was in the old days and now they have bucks. Sig even took Dave to lunch once.) where did Atari get all the money? There have been rumors floating around that AT&T has put in money, TI has put in money, Disney World has put in money. God knows who's put in money. Is it really sales of the ST and 8-bit machines? ST: The money came from one place whose initials are JT. And that's where the money came from. We have been from day one, totally internally financed. We're not borrowing one dollar from any bank outside, any company outside. Totally 100% financed from inside, from my father, and from our partners in the company. (Partners was not qualified.) And the first 14-15 months was hell. We didn't realize how bad the company was, how sick it was. It was a major disaster. It took a lot of money and effort to fix it. You're right, in 85 we were going crazy getting this thing organized. ... Now everything is reorganized, almost everything, very close. Financially we are in a good cash flow position. Money is coming back into the company now. We're financially very strong, and going ahead. We're no longer in hyper drive - we are just going fast now. DS: Do you feel that right now the company is more selling iron (hardware) than selling software? ST: In the ST there's no question. We have 2 titles of our own almost out for sale now. There will be more coming out from ourselves. We are definitely supporting 3rd parties very heavily on the ST software. JP: There are rumors down on the floor (of the Faire) coming from people who are not your friends that the financing of the 1040 was expected to be from 520 sales and you're not getting the revinue from the 520 sales, and thus the 1040 is in terrible trouble. I didn't say I believed it, I'm telling you what people have told me. ST: It is unadulterated bullshit. BULLSHIT! We have enimies? ... AU: As a person who bought the ST for a very specific reason, and that was for its graphics capabilities, is it possible or will it be in the future ... I'm looking for one of the capabilities, pardon the expression, the MacIntosh, that can have software that can work a Laser Jet printer. Is this coming? Is it available now for the ST? The second question is how do I get more space on my VIP Spreadsheet? LT: As far as the laser printers are concerned, there are several laser printers, just standard off the shelf one, that just plug in and they work. You have to make sure you have the appropriate driver for 1st Word, or ST writer, or whatever. I know the QMS Kiss printer, the $2000 laser printer, you know 8 pages per minute, 300 dots per inch grphics, does Diablo emulation and that will work with one of the standard drivers shipped with 1st Word. It also does MX-80 (Epson) emulation and that is another of the standard drivers shipped with the product. And that will also allow you to do a bunch of graphics on the machine (laser printer). Other pieces of software are coming out specifically designed to work with laser printers. There's a fairly ambitious piece of software called the Graphic Artist from Progressive Computer Associates. It is a full blown CAD system that also has word processing and a few other functions built into it, which will specifically have a laser printer. I haven't spoken to the guy for a while. I believe they're shipping it now. SH: There's a couple of companies that are working on desktop publishing using the laser printers. We're hoping they will have them ready by COMDEX. BW: It seems like they are a little ahead of us in Europe. There's more software available in Europe, some of it isn't quite so good. There's more of it that will interface with more printers. AU: Available to us? BW: If you can read German .... LT: There are a couple of companies from England that are advertising in US magazines. DS: On the VIP question, do you have the ROMs installed in your machine? AU: No. DS: Ok, that will help tremendously. MR: About 200K worth! AU: You mean your TOS ROMs. DS: Yes, they're available for $25, right? ST: Right, through your dealer. AU: Will that actually help? MR: It gives you 200k of additional RAM. I would think it would help! You'll probably need a different version of VIP floating around. One works with TOS in RAM, one works with TOS in ROM. If you try to boot the RAM version with TOS in ROM, it locks up. (You can boot TOS off of disk, even if TOS is in ROM, and then load VIP. But then you lose your extra RAM. It is like having to boot a Translator disk on the 8-bit machines. I have no patience for such software. ALL other software [except for a prerelese copy of ST-Talk] for my ST runs with either TOS in ROM or RAM. The VIP developer obviously broke some of the well documented rules of the ST OS. With all the marketing confusion over this product - see the VIP review in a recent issue of ANTIC - it is no telling where, when, or how you will get a VIP-ROM compatible update.) DS: Developers have been having a very rough time with the GEM tools. I've discovered every bug in the assembler that there is. Are there any efforts being made to improve these tools? LT: Yes, we're working with the company that produced the tools in the first place. The supplier that DRI used. They should be sending us a new version of it early next week. We're going to beat the hell out of it first and make sure it works before we start sending it out. MR: Also, ST BASIC has quite a few bugs. Is that going to be updated? And what about ST Writer? LT: ST Writer, I'm not so sure how much updating we're going to be doing on that. ST-BASIC, DEFINITELY. There's a fairly major effort involved in getting ST BASIC cleaned up as much as possible. (ST Writer may be dropped by Atari, but they are supporting 1st Word heavily. A new version 1.03 is now shipping with the STs. It has double spacing and a few other features that were missing previously. Atari is definitely supporting it. This document was created with 1st Word. This processor is fantastic. It uses the GEM interface to perfection! You do not have to memorize a single function key [always on the display] or control key. It is fast and versatile. Try it ST owners!) AU: How do you plan to redistribute the cleaned up BASIC? LT: That turns out to be surprisingly easy. You just take a disk, hand it to Alex Levans, and everyone in the world has it. ... But only if we tell Alex it's OK. If you tell him, don't distribute it, it doesn't go out. AU: Will the new version have line numbers? (In reference to a BASIC for the MacIntosh which does not need them.) LT: BASIC has line numbers, yes. AU: Can you upgrade the 520ST? LT: Depends on the upgrade. If it's TOS in ROM, I'm sure you will get that. AU: I'm mostly interested in the math coprocessor and graphics coprocessor too. LT: As far as the math coprocessor is concerned, that is going to be a very difficult thing to do. The 68000 is just not setup for it. However, if we put out a new machine with a math coprocessor in it, we are looking at several ways of doing it that will not require you to open up the machine to do anything (upgrade it). So you just plug it in, that's fine. As far as graphics processors (ahh, now we squeeze some future product information out of them!), that will be an expensive upgrade, but is something that can be done to an existing machine. AU: There is a board with a 68020 and a math coprocessor on it that they have been using on the AMIGA. It actually makes it work. Have you tried such a thing or herd of it on the ST? LT: Well, one of the things that we did, we took an ST and replaced the 68000 with a 16 megahertz version (doubled speed). We ran the 68000 at 16MHZ, and the rest of the system at its normal 8MHZ. The average performance increase was 5%. The reason for that is the machine is designed so that everything at full speed (unlike some computers we wont mention). You run the processor at twice the speed, but you can't get to memory any faster. It doesn't help. It sits there and it runs, and it waits to get the data. The only math coprocessor for the 68020 is the 68881, which is not quite a complete chip yet. If I remember correctly about 2/3 of the functions that are supposed to be in there are actually there and running. Motorola will get everything fixed up. That coprocessor does not work as fully with the 68000 as with the 68020. There is nothing in the machine that will prevent you from replacing the 68000 with the 68020, it wont run much faster. JP: Your IBM emulator box, that will allow you to plug in a 5 1/4" disk, won't it? LT: An ST will allow you to plug in a 5 1/4" disk (provided you can find the right cable and connectors). And since it's exactly the same format, we read IBM PC disks all the time, thanks to David Small. He built us the disk to do it. MR: Will that be made available to the general public? ST: The 5 1/4" disk? MR: Yes, 5 1/4" compatibility. LT: It's there, just a cable. (But there is no cable that the average user can get his hands on!) JP: Will the 5 1/4" running on my Amiga plug into the ST? LT: I don't think so. I think they've done some very fancy things in there. I really don't know. I'm sure you will have to do something with the plugs, but it may be only that. With the new 3 1/2" format from IBM (they just announced a new PC portable with 3 1/2" drives), every IBM product available is very quickly going to be on 3 1/2" disk. And then just put it in and it works. AU: Wasn't there an 8 bit IBM emulator for the 8-bit? ST: It's an Atari (engineered version of the IBM BIOS). AU: Will it be made available for the 8-bit? LT: When you see the box, it will be self explanitory. ST: That project was killed. AU: I'm confused by that article in Byte, that an IBM emulator was being made for the 8-bit. LT: The BIOS that was being done was not being done for an 8-bit IBM compatible. It was being done for an IBM compatible, period. It had nothing to do ever with the 8-bit Atari line. If Byte confused you, I'm sorry. DS: No comment. What of the future of the graphics blitter chip? I had been told that the first chips were not a successful run. What is the status of the blitter chip? ST: The supplier of the wafers had a process problem the first pass. The next pass is due here, I think, early next week. And if it works, then we're off and running. DS: Would it be reasonable to expect a new machine every six months, seriously, in the June time frame possibly? ST: No, there's quite a bit of software to support it also. I would hope that, I don't want to get into a trap, I do not want to get into any new product anouncements, any hardware announcements until the machine is ready. We are working on a blitter. DS: Why do you feel, the AMIGA is nice (uses blitter), blitter is necessary to the machine? LT: Mostly for future products. DS: That doesn't answer my question. LT: That's the main reason we're doing it. DS: In other words, you have future products which you can't talk about which are going to depend on blitter. LT: Right DS: There has been open talk that the 520 ... JC: Dave excuse me... DS: Ok. JC: For the sake of the people that don't know, what's a blitter? LT: A blitter is a specialized processor that is designed for a very limited number of tasks, of taking two pieces of memory, doing some logical operation on them, and putting the result somewhere else. That is all it does, just takes something and moves it. Typically for moving things around on the screen. BLT - bit block transfer. (It moves large chunks of memory very fast.) AU: Will there be a high level language available for those of use who don't know ML? So that we can use this chip in day to day life? LT: One of the reasons it is not going to be available the instant the chip comes off the assembly line is we're going to adapt all the system software. Whatever call that you used to use to take an object and move it, will use the blitter insted of using software. So as far as compatibility is concerned, or writing software to use it, you don't need to. The system's going to do it all for you. (In fact, for those who wrote their own graphics move routines the circumvent the slower GEM routines, the blitter wont improve things for them. All who use standard GEM calls however, will have instantly faster software when the new BIT BLT machine comes out. Developers beware, follow the rules of the GEM OS, and your software will run with BITBLT in hardware - unmodified. If you cheat on the OS, then your code will become instantly obsolete when the new version of the OS comes out.) BW: What language are you referring to? AU: I don't know, just asking. BW: The reasion I said, is because people ask us (OSS), are we coming out with a BASIC. The asnwer is NO. Are we coming out with a BASIC that will allow movement of objects as the 8-bit machine (P/M graphics), becasue that's missing from ST BASIC. ... Put a blitter chip in, no you're not going to move any objects. You gotta add it to a language in order to get it. LT: You actually don't have to add it to the language. (According to Bill Wilkinson, if it requires POKEs, it isn't in the language as LT would have you believe.) There is a POKE (many pokes for each AES and VDI call!) in ST BASIC which allows you to use any of the functions that are in the operating system. It's not the most convenient programming in existance, but you can write code in BASIC that accesses the VDI bitblt routines. And those will be converted to use the hardware blitter as soon as the hardware blitter is available and we can finish the code. DS: The MacIntosh came out, and it is a very PASCAL oriented machine. If you look inside it, the actual code that runs the machine, very, very Pascal oriented. I personally am not wild about Pascal because of some bad experiences with Pascal zelots at college. However, if you look into the architecture of the ST, you'll see very much a C machine. Very much oriented around that language, and assembly language. I personally think of C as an anarchist's language. It imposes as much structure on you as you want. So I personally feel, with the MacIntosh being a "do it their way" - and their hardware enforcements make sure you do it their way - and this machine (ST) being more of a C anarchist's machine, I feel a great deal more freedom working the ST. Now BASIC is BASIC. It's very difficult to access high level machine functions. My guess would be, perhaps you'll find it easier if your going to use BASIC, to do it on the ST. With the philosophy behind it of an anarchist's machine, where you can do what you want with it as opposed to .... competing 68000 machines, which I'd better not name, lest there be an Apple attourney in the room. I really feel that even though ST BASIC has bugs right now, it is a first cut, that it will end up being a much better choice for you. LT: I think that when the new version of ST BASIC is completed and rereleased, you will not be displeased. MR: Will it still use the same windoing techniques in the final version of ST BASIC? LT: Yes, mostly the same. AU: I'd like to hear a comment on the status of the CD ROMs for the ST. ST: There's a company called Activenture. LT: Not anymore, they changed their name. ST: New name, knowledge disk. LT: Gary Collins said he was tired of them asking him how Donkey Kong was doing. (And someone said there weren't game image problems with certain company names?) It's called Knowledge Set, a play on Type Set. ST: They are supposed to have a CD player out for sale shortly. That's up to them, what they're doing. Also, a company called Library Corp., I heard, saw an add for, that they have a CD ROM out for the ST. But from Atari, we're not getting aggressive now in the CD ROM business. There are a few companies in Japan now that are coming down in price, making it more realistic. Our CD player will have audio as well as ROM capability. And I hope 3rd, or 4th quarter we'll have one. But we are coming out with it. JP: You think of doing audio. Are you following that High Sierra CDI Standard? ST: The CDI thing, what I've learned of it over the last few weeks, is a wonderful idea and it might be out 3 years from now. Because the TVs you need to work on it aren't here yet. It's all high definition new televisions. It's technology ready 3 years from now. Sony told us last week that they will release the specifications for it late next year. So it's a great idea, but later. JP: Will it run OS9 at all? ST: They haven't finalized it yet. LT: It will probably be OS9 internal, but the way the whole thing is designed the user never sees that. One of the nice things about what they're doing is the CDI audio is perfectly rigidly defined, everybody uses the same compatible standard. As far as CD ROM is concerned, it probably looks like the High Sierra standard is going to be adopted, and that is what everyone is using. Both Library Corp and Knowledge Set are using that. And one of the things that's fairly firm in the area of CDI is they are going to make all of the existing standards subsets of the final CDI standard. The CD audio that you use will work on your CDI player, the CD ROM that you use will work on your CDI player, when it comes out 3 or 4 years from now. DS: On the future of the ST, there has been talk of using it as a base terminal into a more powerful box. Is there any comment on that or is that one of the future products you can't talk about? ST: Future products. DS: It would certainly be an interesting use of the blitter chip if it was required to move data at high speeds from such a box. AU: Is the blitter chip going to be available for the 520's? ST: Right now we only have plans for the 1040. It will fit in there. But I think some enterprising entrepenuer will make a little jig for it to fit into a 520 as well. But we have no plans to do it at Atari. (Hint, if Atari were to socket everything in the STs, including RAM, then upgrade kits would become more proliferated. The average "heathkit hacker" can handle soldering, but not desoldering. If RAMs were socketed in STs we will probably see innovative 4MEG or more RAM upgrades for the STs.) AU: Clarify the 80 column card for the 8-bit computers. ST: The 80 column card, we had a meeting with the engineers last week, almost finished. We will be showing it at COMDEX. We've expanded the RAM capabilities of the card. It will probably be in production in June, late June and for sale then. BW: We heard some reports from Europe on how the 80 column card was doing over there. They were saying that it wasn't really doing anything, it was a self running demo. I mentioned that to John Scrutch. He said that's a lie, it was simply presented wrong. It really was a BASIC program which was running. It will work on all (8-bit) Ataris. AU: What about CP/M on the ST? ST: It is now for sale in Europe. It will be for sale here at the end of May. Packaging and cosmetics, the software is up and running. (Who needs a non-graphic OS on an awesome graphics machine like the ST?) AU: How about making an IBM graphics card with your blitter chip on it. The people with IBMs could get decent graphics at a reasonable price. LT: It is a 68000 bus based product. ST: We do plan to have an ST emulator for the IBM next year (just kidding folkes). AU: Is a separate device required to run another DMA device while you're running the hard drive? LT: A little box that has a couple of latches in it. (Trivial bus splitter box.) AU: So we wont be able to daisy chain hard drives then? LT: Without this little box that has the latches in it, no. ST: We call that the OCTOBUSSY. (Oops, another unofficial future product announcement!) LT: It is a bus with 8 ports on it. AU: Price? ST: We haven't priced it yet. AU: What is the release date? ST: Future product. AU: Someone is here demonstrating multitasking on the ST. Can you comment on that product? (That question was asked by Beckemeyer himself.) LT: As soon as someone can figure out the problems of nonprotected memory in multitasking systems, crashing everything under the sun. ST: We wont mention the machines which crash. SH: You may want to say that the multitasking OS9 system is running on the ST, and they may demonstrate it on Tuesday. LT: But there is an intrinsic problem running multitasking systems on nonprotected memory machines. We wont mention other machines, but we wont do that and suffer the consequences. There is nothing intrinsic in the design of the ST or in the design of the O/S that makes it more or less flexible or compatible with multitasking. We are looking at having a very robust, crash free system as we could possibly get it. Putting multitasking with the 68000 with the current state of memory management chips is really asking for trouble. AU: What do you think of the MacCartridge? Is Atari interested in marketing such a product? ST: I know nothing, I hear nothing, .... LT: All questions on that subject should be directed to David Small. DS: Is Atari interested? LT: I think we should conduct such negotiations outside the public view. AU: What is your gut reaction and its possibilities for the marketplace. ST: Pass. LT:There are certainly possibilities for the ST market. It's a nice demonstration of the hardware. AU: What about putting the Maria chip (100 sprites) of the 7800 in the XE? ST: There has been no thought of putting it inside. AU: Are they compatible? ST: I have no idea, I don't think so. BW: You could in theory put one in, but in practice what it would mean is you would have to rewrite the O/S from the ground up, you'd have to throw out all the software you currently own. ST: I knew there was a reason. LT: And when you were done with it you wouldn't have anything significantly better than what you started with. DS: What about the AMY chip? What's the story? ST: The AMY chip is almost alive and well. It is going through many iterations and hopefully it will work soon. JC: What is an AMY chip? ST: It is a super, super sound chip. Unbelievable sound chip, from the old Atari. AU: For what machine? LT: As designed, it can work on many machines, at present it doesn't work on anything. AU: What is the chip for, sound track, video, or what? ST: It is for voice synthesis, for music. It's that kind of chip. AU: Possible price range? ST: When the chip is working, then we get into that category. Lets not waste time before it is working. AU: Inexpensive printers. Are there plans for an inexpensive laser printer? ST: Again, nothing on future products. (Funny, I heard a lot about future products!) We do plan, sometime in the future, to have a laser printer with the Atari label. DS: Do you believe the desktop publishing market is as important as Apple says it is? ST: As Apple? Probably not, but it is important. And we are going to be making the machines for that. (Remember Printmaster, from Unison World. You will be hearing about it in the magazines soon!) AU: Have you had any ideas of getting into the office and networking systems? ST: Also for the educational market as well. And yes, we do plan a number of different networking systems for the ST. There are some 3rd party people doing it, and we're planning our own as well. AU: Is it true a lot of people are using the ST as a dumb terminal? ST: No, an intelligent terminal. AU: What is with Atari in education now? ST: We do have an education department now. It is a lot smaller than it used to be at the old Atari. And we do have some educational programs which offer significant discounts to students. And that program is in place now. DS: Jim, are you seeing good sales of educational software? JC: Actually, something that we are beginning to hear in letters, I think the university market is really ripe for the ST. Those of us who studied computer science or related topics. ... It's hard to believe that I have this kind of power on my desktop. It (ST) is being accepted by universities. We're hearing more, we're getting those kinds of letters. Marvin Minsky, who is way up there in the AI area, that's artificial intelligence research, has one on his desk. He is a professor at MIT. From what I've heard he likes it very much and sees it the way most of us that are more technically oriented, it is a solid piece of architecture that has potential. AU: Will ST RAM expansion go in that expansion box? ST: No RAM expansion goes in the box. AU: Then 1 MEG is maximum? ST: One MEG, that is it in the 1040. There will always be machines with more memory coming out in the future, as RAM develops. (Someone needs to invent an organic RAM chip that repoduces! Just feed it some silicon and miracle grow whenever you start to run a little low. That way we could be into the GIGs in no time!) AU: Will Atari have an ongoing R&D department? ... (Lot of tripe about the old Atari's "blue sky" research group?) LT: The last time we checked a fair amount of R&D was necessary for the development of the ST. ST: Very creative, very advanced R&D. And we will spend a lot of money in R&D in the future, as we have in the past. R&D is a very, very important thing for Atari. We are no longer a MOVIE company. We're not making fantasies. We are products now. We are not just going to piss money away! DS: I would like to get a final summary from each of you to wrap this up now. JC: From my standpoint as a magazine publisher (and software vendor) business has improved. That means you guys are out there. That means that we're working hard and we're getting the message out. We're bringing out a new magazine for the ST called STart, which will be quarterly. That will be funded by the current rate of business, that means business is good. Retailers, there's more retailers, advertising is up, that means that there's more software coming. There's some software and advertisers that have scheduled in the magazine that you haven't seen yet because they have to schedule months in advance. Business is improving, enthusiasm is improving, the popular press is supporting us. The change in identity in terms of this game positioning, too. I think electronic technologies is a key point. Our business is good, our customers are loyal. MR: I don't think the 8-bit is dead. Something that is becoming very popular for the XE computer is a 320K RAM upgrade for the XE computer. Another one that is popular is the 576XE, half a megabyte 8bit machine is becoming quite popular. (ANALOG has ST LOG, a pull out section of its magazine for ST readers. At this time, there are no plans to split into two different magazines. As for 8-bit Atari readers, well just keep your eye on us, we have a surprise issue coming for you later in the year.) ST: First of all I'd like to thank everyone for coming here. And San Leandro users group and your Sunday's being messed up for the show. We are commited to the video game business, to the 8-bit, and to the future 16 and 32 bit markets. And thanks again, thank you very much. LT: This has been fun, lets do it again sometime! BW: I think what has the most hope for my side of the business, the system side, is that the sophistication level of the average ST user is so much higher than the 8-bit user. But we're seeing even in the 8-bit world that sophistication level coming up. Atari Computers, Power Without the Price! This Special Report has been brought to you by Matthew Ratcliff and A.N.A.L.O.G. Computing. My thanks to Bob Barton and Tom Bennett for organizing this informative conference, and squeezing in an "ANALOG Representative" at the last minute. The San Leandro Computer Club (SLCC) and Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society (ABACUS - president Bill Zinn) did an excellent job of representing Atari Corp. at this years' West Coast Computer Faire!